28 May 2013

We have to negotiate a new "masculinity"

Now before anything else, I in tandem with this article referred to in the title-link, would strongly recognise the way that women are still bedevilled by glass ceilings and being disproportionately involved with childcare and domestic labour and being sexually victimised and exploited.

That said, the writing is on the wall for once-unquestioned definitions of masculinity in terms of how we understand it in wider cultural milieus. And this article tries to point up some of the challenge.
The general impression of millions of men as essentially confused, hidebound creatures, in search of certainties that the modern world has left behind, adds up. This is hardly new – quite rightly, Rosin goes back to Susan Faludi's trailblazing 1999 book Stiffed. But in the last 15 years or so, the problem seems to have got even worse, and it seems incontestably true that millions of men have "lost the architecture of manliness but … not replaced it with any new ones".The end of men? Cardboard man is dead. Now let's redefine masculinity | John Harris
 Unfortunately we've not got much of a handle on alternative narratives except the for the clearly unhelpful Peter Pan reactions.
if you're the average halfway educated white male, what have you got to hang on to, besides what looks like textbook overcompensation? An affected interest in that great theatre of tissue-thin masculinity, football? Some vague, porn-informed idea that you can transplant the comical power relations glimpsed online into the bedroom, and demonstrate who's boss? Or just my own generation's large-scale retreat into a kind of blank infantilism, whereby even grownup dads wear saggy shorts they bought in Fat Face, fidget with their phones, and talk loudly about how much they had to drink last night? Men, writes Rosin, "could move more quickly into new roles open to them … nurse, teacher, full-time father." They could, but they usually don't.
I'd want to bring to the discussion the observation that a 'customer-service culture' requires a fuller ability with attributes traditionally associated with traditional definitions of femininity: empathy, attention to the needs of others and similar. Now note that I use words like 'associated' and 'traditional definitions'. There are very few genuine differences between men and women that are hard-and-fast. There are statistical likelihoods, but even these may be more due to culture than biochemical hard-wiring. (For more see Delusions of Gender). Men are quite capable of learning to do all this stuff -as many demonstrate- even where they have shown little interest or apparent aptitude before. The only thing stopping them/us is laddishness and similar dysadaptations of cultural repertoire.

So the real issue is about us negotiating a new cultural settlement. And this can only really happen by men thinking about this together and with women, trying things out and not accepting sexist responses.

I'm wondering what Christian men have to bring to the table. In some cases a restatement of the attitudes that are now a problem: certain traditional 'readings' of scripture or complementarianism, it seems to me, are simply attempting to fix an unsustainable and ulitimately unjust and personhood-diminishing set of gender stereotypes. at best this may help some men (and perhaps some women) to hold on until something new appears.

Let me say what I think that Christian men might be bringing to the big cultural negotiation, at our best. We follow someone who taught that being great is about serving others (including women and children), who showed leadership in promoting good for those around him and in setting them free to be fuller people with more expansive opportunities. It seems to me that however we define (cultural) masculinity, it has to work within a set of parameters which  embed service and the common good, the welfare of others. In fact, I can't see how that differs from femininity. This is counter cultural in terms of old definitions. But we have to question traditional masculinities which would problematise turning the other cheek or walking an extra mile as being 'unmanly'.

The real difficulty with masculinity is that there is no universally accepted/approved version any longer, leaving some men in crisis, trying to live out of models which seem ridiculous to many and which tend to lead to diminishing outcomes and failure in life strategies. Paradoxically, we have to ask; are we 'man enough' to change and to do the right thing. Are we 'man enough' to reject laddishness, yobbishness and emotional-stuntedness? We have to be 'man enough' to be be comfortable in our own gendered skins and not to be fazed by the fact that many times who we are does not fit the stereotypes. We have to be 'man enough' to affirm others who are unstereotypical in their self-presentation of masculinity.

Ironically, too, I suspect that part of helping us to negotiate through into a new world of male and female, could be learning from and with gay and transgender people. They are potentially part of the solution and a God-given gift to us all to help us understand culture, nature and nurture in gender and relationships.

27 May 2013

There's a generation gap in charitable giving

 I can't help wondering whether this has some link to the de-Christionising of our country:
 "young people are failing to keep up with their forebears in the generosity stakes". It seems the generation from which the "chuggers" who prowl our high streets are drawn is, paradoxically, less likely to give to charity. But, as the report makes clear, they're just the latest participants in a trend – rates of giving have been declining in the households of the under-50s for decades. Why there's a generation gap in charitable giving | Ed Howker:
 Other research indicates that religious people are more likely to volunteer, and I would link volunteering with giving; one's money the other time and effort.

The article, however, posits another issue:
But today they are wrongfooted on two fronts. For the left it is government's role to fix environmental problems, provide healthcare and address poverty. The right, meanwhile, looks to markets to improve health provision, trade carbon credits and raise standards of living at home and abroad. Both models undermine the value of the individual contributor, leaving him or her to wonder "what's the point"?
 I think I'd find this more convincing were it not for the fact that this same generation are not really getting involved in the political processes and, in my experience, seem cynical both of governmental and private enterprise ability to fix things. Perhaps that has extended also to charitable giving too? I think I still come back to the hypotheses that it is simply that most of them have not been raised with the idea that giving money is something to be encouraged or to be regularly intentional about. It's okay for charity fundraisers like Comic Relief but that hardly constitutes a sustained discipline of charitable giving which, frankly, I have learnt from Christian discipleship. Without a sustained encouragement, I contend, people tend (and I empahisise that; it's not a simple binary do or don't) not to 'self tax' voluntarily. I don't discount entirely a sense of passing up responsibility to state or market, but I think that more important is a socially reinforced vision and encouragement to at least counteract some of the worst of our foul-ups or even to try to make the world a slightly better place.

Neuroscience and consciousness

I think that this is pretty much the same argument as John Searle makes against reductionism of mind to brain.
Even if neuroscience one day tracks every single neuron firing in real time, you won't be watching consciousness. You'll have more precise correlations to play with, yes. But people will still experience pain and say "Ouch!", not "Oh, no worries: it's just neuron cluster 148 lighting up." Face to faith: When we meditate or use our powers of perception, we call on more than just a brain :
 And the article notes that the hard problem remains -the insideness of what we experience  isn't merely physical. This leaves -in terms of options for philosophical approaches- dualism or emergent monism. I still tend towards the latter.

23 May 2013

Great book: Unapologetic

 I've recently finished reading Francis Spufford's book Unapologetic. I have to say that I'm mightily impressed. One of things I've really enjoyed is the language, the writing: Spufford has a great way with words and I've really enjoyed the imagery and metaphors he uses and found they really connect and feel contemporary. He also has section where he writes phrases in contemporary speeck style -usually mildly sacrastic but showing thereby that some views are, well, a bit silly really and we should recognise that.

His main aim is not so much to give intellectual reasons for faith as to give insight to how the world looks from an intelligent Christian's perspective ("You can easily look up what Christians believe in. You can read any number of defences of Christian ideas. This, however, is a defence of Christian emotions – of their intelligibility, of their grown-up dignity. The book is called Unapologetic because it isn’t giving an ‘apologia’, the technical term for a defence of the ideas. And also because I’m not sorry.") and why we aren't necessarily convinced by the New Athiest arguments (okay, that's where some of the odd excursuses into sarcasm come in, but even they make sense in context). As such I might even go as far as to say it's a postmodern Mere Christianity. I have a few -very few- points where I feel that in the theodicy bits, more credit to one or two of the answers might be given or at least explored further (see in the quotes and notes section below).

I suppose I should also mention that on a handful of occasions he uses 'fruity' language, but nothing beyond what you'd hear most days on public transport. And I think in most cases it's fair enough, even if not what I'd say.

All in all, definitely worth getting. It's one of the first books in ages that I've actively thought that I wanted to pass on and encourage others to read.

Quotes and notes from my Kindle

Those are the objections of people who care enough about religion to object to it – or to rent a set of recreational objections from Richard Dawkins or Christopher Hitchens.
 
there’s something truly devoted about the way that Dawkinsites manage to extract a stimulating hobby from the thought of other people’s belief. The ones in this country must be envious of the intensity of the anti-religious struggle in the United States; yet some of them even contrive to feel oppressed by the Church of England, which is not easy to do. It must take a deft delicacy at operating on a tiny scale, like doing needlepoint, or playing Subbuteo, or fitting a whole model-railway layout into an attaché case.
 
We’re weird because we’re inexplicable; because, when there’s no necessity for it that anyone sensible can see, we’ve committed ourselves to a set of awkward and absurd attitudes which obtrude, which stick out against the background of modern life, and not in some important or respect-worthy or principled way either; more in the way that some particularly styleless piece of dressing does, which makes the onlooker wince and look away
 
Most people’s lives provide them with a full range of loves and hates and joys and despairs, and a moral framework by which to understand them, and a place for awe and transcendence, without any need for religion. Believers are the people touting a solution without a problem, and an embarrassing solution too, a really damp-palmed, wide-smiling, can’t-dance solution. In an anorak
 
The funny thing is that to me it’s exactly the other way around. In my experience, it’s belief that involves the most uncompromising attention to the nature of things of which you are capable. It’s belief which demands that you dispense with illusion after illusion, while contemporary common sense requires continual, fluffy pretending. Pretending that might as well be systematic, it’s so thoroughly incentivised by our culture.
 [about the atheist bus adverts: 'There probably isn't a God, so stop worrying and enjoy your life.']
the word that offends against realism here is ‘enjoy’. I’m sorry – enjoy your life? Enjoy your life? I’m not making some kind of neo-puritan objection to enjoyment. Enjoyment is lovely. Enjoyment is great. The more enjoyment the better. But enjoyment is one emotion. The only things in the world that are designed to elicit enjoyment and only enjoyment are products, and your life is not a product; you cannot expect to unwrap it,

To say that life is to be enjoyed ( just enjoyed) is like saying that mountains should only have summits.
 
The implication of the bus slogan is that enjoyment would be your natural state if you weren’t being ‘worried’ by us believers and our hellfire preaching. Take away the malignant threat of God-talk, and you would revert to continuous pleasure, under cloudless skies. What’s so wrong with this, apart from it being total bollocks? Well, in the first place, it buys a bill of goods, sight unseen, from modern marketing.
 
let’s be clear about the emotional logic of the bus’s message. It amounts to a denial of hope or consolation, on any but the most chirpy, squeaky, bubble-gummy reading of the human situation. St Augustine called this kind of thing ‘cruel optimism’ fifteen hundred years ago, and it’s still cruel.
 
But it is still a mistake to suppose that it is assent to the propositions that makes you a believer. It is the feelings that are primary. I assent to the ideas because I have the feelings; I don’t have the feelings because I’ve assented to the ideas. 
The emotions that sustain religious belief are all, in fact, deeply ordinary and deeply recognisable to anybody who has ever made their way across the common ground of human experience as an adult. They are utterly familiar and utterly intelligible, and not only because the culture is still saturated with the spillage of Christianity, slopped out of the broken container of faith and soaked through everything. This is something more basic at work, an unmysterious consanguinity with the rest of experience.
 [Re sin and it's bad press in contemporary western culture]
‘Sin’, you can see, always refers to the pleasurable consumption of something. Also, it always preserves some connection to sex, which is why it would seem creepy for it ever to appear in the branding of a product aimed at children, and sometimes the sex is literal, but usually it’s been disembodied, reduced to a mere tinge of the amosphere of desire, and transferred from sex itself to another bodily satisfaction,

The other universal is that ‘sin’ always encodes a memory of ancient condemnation: but a distant memory, a very faint and inexplicable memory, just enough of a memory to add a zing of conscious naughtiness to whatever the pleasure in question is.

Everybody knows, then, that ‘sin’ basically means ‘indulgence’ or ‘enjoyable naughtiness’. If you were worried, you’d use a different word or phrase. You’d talk about ‘eating disorders’ or ‘addictions’; you’d go to another vocabulary cloud altogether.
If I say the word ‘sin’ to you, I’m basically buggered (as we like to say in the Church of England). It’s going to sound as if I’m bizarrely opposed to pleasure, and because of the continuing link between ‘sin’ and sex, it will seem likely that at the root of my problem with pleasure is a problem with sex. You will diagnose me as a Christian body-hater. You’ll corral me among the enemies of ordinary joy. You’ll class me with the holy life-haters William Blake was thinking of, in the poem in his Songs of Experience ...
You’re lying in the bath and you notice that you’re thirty-nine and that the way you’re living bears scarcely any resemblance to what you think you’ve always wanted; yet you got here by choice, by a long series of choices for things which, at any one moment, temporarily outbid the things you say you wanted most. And as the water cools, and the light of Saturday morning in summer ripples heartlessly on the bathroom ceiling, you glimpse an unflattering vision of yourself as a being whose wants make no sense, don’t harmonise: whose desires, deep down, are discordantly arranged, so that you truly want to possess and you truly want not to, at the very same time. You’re equipped, you realise, for farce (or even tragedy) more than you are for happy endings. The HPtFtU [Human Propensity to Fuck things Up] dawns on you. You have, indeed, fucked things up. Of course you have.

[Moving on from sin]
I will give awe its due later, I promise, but the trouble with it as a starting-point is that it is, by its nature, a rather isolated emotion, marked out by its sudden self-forgetting focus on an object external to us, and by its disconnection from everyday trundling along. If awe is powerful, it tends to be a state we fall out of knackered, after a while, unable to keep up the intensity. If it’s more modest, it tends of its nature to fade away anyway, to peter out on the hilltop where it began. And in neither case is it obvious how awe is supposed to relate to the rest of experience. I think of awe as a kind of National Trust property among feelings: somewhere to visit from time to time, but not a place you can live.)

Over the last fifty years, we really have been escaping, as a culture, from a set of cruel and constricting rules, particularly about sexuality and gender roles, which (yes) did have the sanction of religion behind them. (Not that religion caused those rules to exist, on the whole. There was a malignant cultural consensus in place in their favour, of which religion was a part.)
In my experience, in times of intense misery it’s letting your guilt be guilt that at least stops you needing to accuse yourself; and in better times, in times of more or less cheerful ordinary muddling through, I’ve found that admitting there’s some black in the colour-chart of my psyche doesn’t invite the blot of dark to swell, or give a partial truth more gloomy power over me than it should have, but the opposite. Admitting there’s some black in the mixture makes it matter less. It makes it easier to pay attention to the mixedness of the rest. It helps you stop wasting your time on denial, and therefore helps you stop ricocheting between unrealistic self-praise and unrealistic self-blame. It helps you be kind to yourself.
We find it hard to acknowledge the seriousness of ordinary screw-ups, because we get very worried by the idea that we might be judging people, ‘judgemental’ being another Bad Word of our time – or ‘sitting in judgement’ on them, which draws the instant mental picture of us being raised above them, on some kind of courtroom throne, gazing down with a brow like thunder. And isn’t this what religion famously encourages people to do? To judge, to criticise, to carp, to find fault? Well, no. (Though lots of religious people do carp, criticise, judge, find fault. See above, under: HPtFtU. I may, ahem, be a little inclined to fault-finding myself.) Ironically enough, the taboo about being ‘judgemental’ wasn’t formed in our culture in reaction to religion; it isn’t part of the great journey into the secular light on which A. C. Grayling is leading us, tossing his miraculously bouffant locks. It is, itself, a little piece of inherited Christianity, a specifically Christian prohibition which has turned proverbial and floated free of its context, origins all forgotten, until we imagine that it means we shouldn’t even think in terms of good and bad. Originally, what it meant was that we shouldn’t think of good and bad in terms of laws, or in terms of a courtroom procedure which would find people guilty or not guilty

notice the consequence of having an ideal of behaviour not sized for human lives: everyone fails. Really everyone. No one only means well, no one means well all the time. Looked at from this perspective, human beings all exhibit different varieties of fuck-up. And suddenly in its utter lack of realism Christianity becomes very realistic indeed, intelligently resigned to our vast array of imperfections, and much more interested in what we can do to live with them than in laws designed to keep them segregated

If you happened to be crouched in a shell-crater on a battlefield when you made your experiment in prayer, on the no-atheists-in-foxholes principle, the bullets continue to zip towards you on trajectories that are perfectly unaltered. You can beat with your fists on it and the door stays locked, possibly because the thing you’re asking to open isn’t even a door. It’s one of the walls. It’s just one of the smooth, flat, hard, sintered surfaces of the state of things.
...  arriving at Him as people do in experience: not as a philosophical proposition, an abstract possibility, but as the answer to a need, something we might yearn toward for reasons of intelligible guilt or sorrow, whether or not there’s anything there to satisfy the yearning.

My NoteI suppose that I want to put in a plea for those who don't arrive from those points of departure: some of us came from places of songing for meaning or an inescapable sense of the more-ness of existence.

[on the experience of praying] 
for us too, nothing happens when we ask for help. The nothing that happens is universal, an experience shared by believers and unbelievers alike. It is true that we understand the nothing differently, but not because we start from a different experience of it. 
It’s hard to listen, even when misery nudges you into trying. Fortunately, the international league of the guilty has littered the landscape with specialised buildings where attention comes easier. I walk in. I glance around. And I see the objects that different ages carried in here because they thought they were precious, tattered battle flags and stained glass, carved wood and memorials saying he was a magistrate of unequalled probity: not in order to declare, those past people, that this was a place where only a precious and tasteful selection from human behaviour was welcome, but the opposite, to celebrate with the best things they had the way the place acknowledged absolutely all of human behaviour. The calm in here is not denial. It’s an ancient, imperturbable lack of surprise. To any conceivable act you might have committed, the building is set up only to say, ah, so you have, so you did; yes. Would you like to sit down? I sit down. I shut my eyes.
 [on becoming aware of Someone/thing Beyond and Intimate]
And now I’ve forgotten to breathe, because the shining something, an infinitesimal distance away out of the universe, is breathing in me and through me, and though the experience is grand beyond my powers to convey, it’s not impersonal. Someone, not something, is here. Though it’s on a scale that defeats imagining and exists without location (or exists in all locations at once) I feel what I feel when there’s someone beside me. I am being looked at. I am being known; known in some wholly accurate and complete way that is only possible when the point of view is not another local self in the world but glows in the whole medium in which I live and move. I am being seen from inside, but without any of my own illusions. I am being seen from behind, beneath, beyond. I am being read by what I am made of

And while it may be safe, it is not kind in one of the primary ways in which human beings set about being kind to each other. It takes no account, at all, of my illusions about myself. It lays me out, roofless, wall-less, worse than naked. It knows where my kindness comes chequered with secret cruelties or mockeries. It knows where my love comes with reservations. It knows where I hate, and fear, and despise. It knows what I indulge in. It knows what parasitic colonies of habit I have allowed to form in me. It knows the best of me, which may well be not what I am proud of, and the worst of me, which is not what it has occurred to me to be ashamed of. It knows what I have forgotten. It knows all this, and it shines at me. In fact it never stops shining. It is continuous, this attention it pays. I cannot make it turn away. But I can turn away from it, easily; all I have to do is to stop listening to the gentle, unendingly patient call it stitches through the fabric of everything there is. It compels nothing, so all I have to do is stop paying attention. And I do, after not very long. I can’t bear, for very long at once, to be seen like that. To be seen like that is judgement in itself

These are explanations of how my feelings might have arisen, physically, but they don’t explain my feelings away. They don’t prove that my feelings were not really my feelings. They certainly don’t prove that there was nobody there for me to be feeling them about. If God does exist, then from my point of view it’s hard to see how a physical creature like myself could ever register His presence except through some series or other of physically-​determined bodily states.
Starting to believe in God is a lot like falling in love, and there is certainly a biochemical basis for that. Cocktails of happy hormones make you gooey and trusting; floods of neurotransmitters make your thoughts skip elatedly along. Does this prove that the person you love is imaginary? It does not. The most the physical accounts demonstrate, where God is concerned, is that He isn’t necessary as an explanation. Which I feel does not really amount to news. I kind of knew that anyway, my philosophical starting-point for all this being that we don’t need God to explain any material aspect of the universe, including our mental states; while conversely, no material fact about the universe is ever going to decide for us whether He exists. God’s non-necessity in explanations is a given, for me. For me, it means that I’m only ever going to get to faith by some process quite separate from proof and disproof; that I’m only going to arrive at it because, in some way that it is not in the power of evidence to rebut, it feels right.
may not be interested in proof – you can’t disprove the existence of a feeling – but I am interested in the feeling’s philosophical dignity.
showing that God-the-evolved-organism is unlikely says nothing about the probability of the different thing we do in fact believe. Arguing with people imposes an unfortunate necessity to find out what they think before you open your big mouth to contradict
the Russellian teapot argument commits the fallacy of assuming the state of the universe it seeks to demonstrate.

[Positivism] tends to believe that it is science; it thinks that what it sees around it is the bare, disenchanted, unmediated, uncoloured truth delivered by the scientific method. Look, no gods! Also, no fairies, no unicorns, no griffins, no leprechauns. A quick census of the local fauna confirms it: case solved. But this perceptual world isn’t science. It is a cultural artefact created by one version of the cultural influence of science, specific to the last two centuries in Europe and North America. It is not a direct, unmediated picture of reality; far from it. It is a drastically human-centred, human-scaled selection from the physical universe, comfortably restricted to the order of reality which is cooked rather than raw, which happens within the envelope of society. It scarcely touches on what the world is like apart from us.
... treats us living creatures as the securely-tenured lords of all we survey, rather than as the brief ripples of information we actually amount to. In fact
I myself am a Christian and not a Muslim or a Buddhist for a mixture of the two different kinds of reason; as an outcome of both kinds of process. On the passive side, Christianity was the religion of my childhood. It’s the ancient religion, for something like forty generations, of the place I come from. It’s the matrix of my culture. But it’s also something I came back to, freely, as an adult, after twenty-odd years of atheism, because piece by piece I have found that it answers my need, and corresponds to emotional reality for me. I also find that the elaborated structure of meaning it builds, the story it tells, explains that reality more justly, more profoundly, more scrupulously and plausibly than any of the alternatives. (Am I sure I’m right? Of course not. Don’t you get bored with asking that question?)
[ Matters of Evil]
... stay in the domain of living processes and the reproduction thereof: as well as backing the existence of roses and kittens, the God of everything must sustain tapeworms, necrotising bacteria that reduce flesh to a puddle of pus, and parasitic wasps as they eat their way out of their hosts. Any cell that divides in any organism must be doing so in the radiance of the universal attention. Our judgements of beauty and utility and desirability are beside the point. Crocuses multiply, and so do anthrax spores, and the God of everything smiles on all alike. The same has to be true of all the acts and events of human societies; and of all places, and of all times; and in fact of every configuration of matter and energy everywhere, continuously. The God of everything must be equally present for everything. You name it. He is exactly as present in a room in a failing strip-mall where a malfunctioning fluorescent tube is jittering out headache for all onlookers as He is in a cathedral. He pays equal attention to the individual way each of the billion separate pebbles lie on a pebble beach. And on all the other beaches. He knows and sustains the exact placement of every single molecule of frozen carbon dioxide in the northern polar cap of Mars. And of every other molecule of every other planet, around every other star. The lot. For every unselected speck of existence, patient shining.
Kings and caliphs, emperors and popes, televangelists and household bullies have all wanted to claim that their authority is a licensed copy of its universal reach, but their claim must always be incomplete at best. In the end, their power and His are unlike. Their power is rivalrous, in the economic sense. It is big because others’ power is small. It needs to be extracted from the submission of other apes like themselves. But His power needs nothing, competes with nothing, compels nothing, exists at nothing’s expense. You could no more be humiliated by Him (Her, It) than you could by the height of the Himalayas or the depth of the Atlantic or the number of oxygen atoms in the air. It may make sense to compare Him to a king, if a king is your best local image of unparalleled majesty, but even if He is like a king, kings are not like Him.* He is more than any king. He is as common as the air. He is the ordinary ground. And yet a presence. And yet a person.
... the bastard does exist, if the God of everything is shining patiently in every room, then you can’t escape the truth that He must be shining in some horrible places. He must be lending his uncritical sustaining power to rooms in which the vilest things are happening. There He must be, obligingly maintaining the flow of electrons through the rusty wires that are conducting 240 volts into the soft tissue of some poor screaming soul in a torture chamber. There He must be, benignly silent, as a migrant worker is raped at a truck stop. There He must be, shining contentedly away, in the overrun emergency room where the children from a crushed school bus are dying. And when you’ve noticed that you’re ready for the next act in the emotional drama of belief we’re following here.* Which is, of course, horrified disgust.
[if one believes in] the absence of God, of course, there’s still pain. But there’s no problem. It’s just what happens. Once the God of everything is there in the picture, and the physics and biology and history of the world we know become in some ultimate sense His responsibility, the lack of love and protection in the order of things begins to shriek
the lesson ‘all school-children learn’, according to W. H. Auden: Those to whom evil is done Do evil in return. Suffering doesn’t on the whole ennoble us. Usually it debases and distorts us, turning us more than ever into creatures who want to pay harms back to someone. Checked against the knowledge of schoolchildren, the theodicy fails.
God of everything who loved us would have to behave as love requires, and allow us to belong fully to ourselves, and therefore to be free to do unlimited harm. He would have to stand back helplessly as a parent of an adult child does, thwartedly tender, twisting His hands in anguish as He refuses to pay our drug debts. But what about the rest? What about earthquakes, gangrene, supernovas? You can pull your adult child out of quicksand without threatening their autonomy. Fail. 

My Note: there is a stronger case to be made and a criticism of the critique made here. Partly it would be about where you would draw the interventonary line and partly about autonomy not being simply human. On drawing the line: it seems to me that if this becomes an argument for more divine intervention, then it becomes hard for interventions not to be justified -until the whole world would be overtaken by exceptions and moral freedom disappeared. Autonomy may need to be recognised to be about the 'freedom' of matter and energy which may be the bedrock of valued human capabilities such as love and freedom ... not saying these are last words, just that there is more to be taken in.
 
We suffer, but it doesn’t matter, because it’s only a momentary prelude to heaven. Dear oh dear; give me strength. A comprehensive and instant fail, this time, because whether or not you believe that heaven is real, this life certainly is, and so is the suffering it contains. You can’t deal with the problem by ignoring it. 

My Note: this seems to be Julian of Norwich's position.and I wonder if it might be stronger than here credited.  Julian's vision and understanding of it seem to hold out the possibility that the joys of Ultimate Union with God might in the End prove to be more weighty than they may feel in the here and now: "All will be well, and all will be well, and all manner of thing shall be well".
 
How could the God of everything, the creator who precedes and sustains all nature, whose love song summons nature into existence, produce something defective?
problem. ‘How can God permit suffering?’ has become ‘How can God permit a universe that permits suffering?’ The problem doesn’t vanish, it merely relocates, it merely moves back a step.

... makes immediate, intuitive emotional sense to see the universe around us as being ‘fallen’, but then we find we haven’t got a Fall. The plausibility and comprehensibility of any candidate vision seem to be inversely related.

you just howl, and kick as hard as you can at the imagined ankles of the God of everything, for it is one of His functions, and one of the ways in which He’s parent-like, to be the indestructible target for our rage and sorrow, still there, still loving, whatever we say to Him. The element of useful truth in this last and best of theodicies is the reminder it contains that the creation is not the same as the creator.

anyone inclined to think, in a happy wafty muddly way, that nature is God, nature replies: have a cup of pus, Mystic Boy.
The work of reading the geological record, and thereby exploding the Genesis chronology, was for the most part done not by anti-Christian refuseniks but by scientists and philosophers thinking their way onward from starting-points within the religious culture of the time. Once it became clear that truth lay elsewhere than in Genesis, religious opinion on the whole moved with impressive swiftness to accommodate the discovery.
there’s a good case to be made that the ready acceptance of evolution in Britain owed a lot to the great cultural transmission mechanism of the Church of England. If you’re glad that Darwin is on the £10 note, hug an Anglican.
Even if, impossibly, some true and sufficient explanation could be given you, it wouldn’t help, any more than the inadequate and defective explanations help you, whether they are picture-book simple or inscrutably contorted. The only comfort that can do anything – and probably the most it can do is help you to endure, or if you cannot endure to fail and fold without wholly hating yourself – is the comfort of feeling yourself loved.
This is the story we have instead of an argument, and it is important that it is a story, making a story-like sense, and having a story’s chance to move us, with human stuff organised into a tellable pattern in time. But while a story is not the same thing as a lie, there are stories and stories.
For them, the usual deal the empire offers – obey, pay our taxes, and you’re welcome to pour your culture into the vast blend of ours – doesn’t work. For them, it has no upside. They don’t want the one God found a junior spot among the gods of Dental Health, Matching Curtains and Being Well Endowed. They don’t want Him blended. Blending would be adulteration. Or, in fact, adultery. Their prophets have told them over and over again how unfaithful they are, what a bunch of wandering-eyed wife-swappers and sluts they are in relation to their ever-committed God,
 
there’s a huge collective impurity the law cannot tell them how to remove: the occupation itself. The empire and its filthy gods encroach. Tourists wander into holy places, chattering and laughing. The empire’s money with its blasphemous pictures has to be used for buying innocent, ordinary bread. It’s as if the people of the province are being kept forcibly dirty, all the time. Somehow, they think, the favour of God has been forfeited. For some reason, they are being punished

he seems weirdly unbothered about sex. Except to make it clear that it falls under the umbrella of his perfectionism, he hardly has a thing to say about it. He expresses no opinions whatsoever about homosexuality, abortion, promiscuity, contraception, clerical celibacy, virginity at marriage, modest dress, non-procreative sex, masturbation, gay marriage, or how far you should go on a first date. He appears to be opposed to divorce on the pro-feminist grounds that it cuts women off without economic support. (In his world, men can divorce women but not the other way round.) He does not denounce anything. He does not seem to be disgusted by anybody, anybody at all. It is as if, shockingly, what we do in bed is not specially important to him. As if it just does not constitute for him a particularly prominent and anxious category of human behaviour.
The law says that everyone should get what they deserve, but God already knows what we deserve with terrible precision, and He wants us to have more than that. He
Even in argument, even practising neat word-judo on a heckler with an agenda, he appears to be fully focused on the particular individual in front of him. When he offends a rich person by advising them to dump their possessions, he does not say it to push them away; it is his real prescription for what afflicts them, and when they do not take his remedy he is sorry, if unsurprised.
... he will not agree that hope is gone beyond recall. Wreckage may be written into the logic of the world, but he will not agree that it is all there is. He says, more can be mended than you fear. Far more can be mended than you know.

And he himself, existing in the domain of limits, has limits too. Healing people exhausts him; it makes him sway on his feet. Day after day ends with him helplessly asking his friends to get him away, and they carry him off in a boat, or up into the hills, just so he can sleep, leaving behind the vast total of the world’s suffering almost unaltered, only the tiniest inroads made into it, only an infinitesimal fraction of it eased

And since, as well as being a weak and frightened man, he’s also the love that makes the world, to whom all times and places are equally present, he isn’t just feeling the anger and spite and unbearable self-disgust of this one crowd on this one Friday morning in Palestine; he’s turning his bruised face toward the whole human crowd, past and present and to come, and accepting everything we have to throw at him, everything we fear we deserve ourselves. The doors of his heart are wedged open wide, and in rushes the whole pestilential flood, the vile and roiling tide of cruelties and failures and secrets. Let me take that from you, he is saying. Give that to me instead. Let me carry it. Let me be to blame instead. I am big enough. I am wide enough. I am not what you were told. I am not your king or your judge. I am the father who longs for every last one of his children. I am the friend who will never leave you. I am the light behind the darkness. I am the shining your shame cannot extinguish. I am the ghost of love in the torture chamber. I am change and hope. I am the refining fire. I am the door where you thought there was only wall. I am what comes after deserving. I am the earth that drinks up the bloodstain. I am gift without cost. I am. I am. I
He is all open door: to sorrow, suffering, guilt, despair, horror, everything that cannot be escaped, and he does not even try to escape it, he turns to meet it, and claims it all as his own. This is mine now, he is saying; and he embraces it with all that is left in him, each dark act, each dripping memory, as if it were something precious, as if it were itself the loved child tottering homeward on the road. But there is so much of it. So many injured children; so many locked rooms; so much lonely anger; so many bombs in public places; so much vicious zeal; so many bored teenagers at roadblocks; so many drunk girls at parties someone thought they could have a little fun with; so many jokes that go too far; so much ruining greed; so much sick ingenuity; so much burned skin. The world he claims, claims him. It burns and stings, it splinters and gouges, it locks him round and drags him down.
He’s so deep down now in the geology of woe, so buried beneath the mountains’ weight of it, that the pressure is squeezing out his feeling for the light. There’s nothing left of it for him but a speck, a pinpoint the world grinds in on itself, a dot dimming as the strata of the dark are piled heavier and heavier on it. And then it goes out. Of course it does. Love can’t repair death. Death is stronger than love. We all know that. But Yeshua didn’t, until now. This is the first time in his entire life he’s ever felt alone. Now there is no love song. There is no kind father. There is just a man on a cross, dying in pain; a foolish man who chose to give up life and breath to be a carcass on a pole. The yellow walls of the city blur with Yeshua’s tears, and he opens his mouth and howls the news – new only to him – that we are abandoned in a dark place where help never comes

[the NT] letters, do have an absolutely definite set of convictions about him that they are casting around for adequate words to express. That Jesus’s actions in the world were God’s own actions in the world; that where Jesus was present, God was directly present too; that his death and return from death were an initiative by God to take from humanity the weight of guilt and shame and disgust, and to show us a life larger than law. This cluster of propositions is Christianity’s first layer of organised words and understandings. It, not the biographies, is the foundation. Which means that the strange God/man mixture is there in the foundation. It may not be true, it may still be a piece of after-the-event fabrication or misunderstanding, but it is not an addition to the story. It is, itself, the thing the story is struggling to report

When the Gospel stories started to be written, Jerusalem was already a ruin and the temple was rubble; the province’s countryside was beginning to be ethnically cleansed. The landscape of small towns and small-town synagogues, populated by yearning, fearful, angry people, was ceasing to exist. The Gospel writers were recreating a lost place and time when they described Jesus’s journeys fifty, sixty, seventy years earlier. The interpretation was always fused with the events

The Jesus of the orthodox story treats people with deep attention even when angry. Their Jesus zaps people with his divine superpowers if they irritate him. Orthodox Jesus says that everyone needs the love of God, and God loves everyone. Their Jesus has an inner circle you can be admitted to if you collect enough crisp packets. Orthodox Jesus likes wine, parties, and grilled fish for breakfast. Their Jesus thinks that human flesh and its appetites are icky. Orthodox Jesus is disconcertingly unbothered about sexuality, and conducts his own sexual life, if he has one, off the page. Their Jesus can generate women to have sex with out of his own ribs, in a way that suggests the author had trouble talking to girls. Orthodox Jesus says, ‘Don’t be afraid. I am always with you.’ The Jesus of these documents says, ‘Advance, Blue Adept, to the 17th Jade Portal of Amazingness, and give the secret signal with your thumbs.’* Read much of the rival ‘gospels’, and you start to think that the Church Fathers who decided what went into the New Testament had one of the easiest editorial jobs on record. It wasn’t a question of suppression or exclusion, so much as of seeing what did and didn’t belong inside the bounds of a basically coherent story.
To have a creator who becomes a creature mixes up the conceptual layers of ordinary reality. It pokes a hole in reality and pulls some of the background through to form a lovely rosette;

the Christian move of giving God a human body literally messes with holiness, at least as the other two monotheisms define
the God/man mixture in Jesus brings us something more precious than conceptual purity: hope in trouble, consolation in suffering, help in anguish. It brings us a way out of the far worse and more destructive paradoxes of theodicy

It’s a common mythological move, a cultural basic, an anthropological golden oldie. Transcendent power goes down into the dark and allows itself to be extinguished, but then returns all the stronger, having incorporated into itself the strength of the opposing principle. A frequent Christian response, when this is pointed out, is to argue that all the other stories are foreshadowings or echoes of ours, which happens to be the one true story. But this, to me, seems rather obviously to set the big red Special Pleading alarm flashing, and to sound the klaxon of bullshit. I think a better answer is just to agree that universal is universal is universal. Everybody dies; everybody tells stories about gods; everybody is going to try, at some point, to make story-sense of death by subjecting one of the lustrous figures of the gods to it. The usual point of gods is that they’re immortal, which will make the death of one of them bring out all the more fiercely the existential scandal which is our own death. Gods, in anthropological terms, are where we put in concentrated form our sense of what our own being, our own aliveness, is. A god dies: being encounters non-being. Everyone sits up in their seats and leans forward, because the drama is our own. So perhaps that’s what Christianity is, the traditional god-dies theme being installed for the God of everything? If so, then the story I’ve just told is a myth. We can categorise Jesus’s adventures as forming an imaginative pattern like the pattern of the story of Odin, one whose function is to embody a deep piece of human meaning-discovery. One which is true (or maybe ‘true’) so far as it embodies true perception, rather than because it corresponds to any actual event.
it does not read like a myth. It’s the wrong shape, in a number of different ways. For a start, it doesn’t happen in the special time set aside for myths, the dream-time, the long-ago zone off to the side of calendar history where gods and heroes strutted their stuff. What year was it when Odin hung on the tree? The question does not compute. It’s a category error, like asking what colour accountancy is. Jesus’s story, by contrast, happens at a definite historical address.
In myth, our ordinary preoccupations get projected outwards in extraordinary form. They’re amplified into fantasy. Here, what is emphatically not our view of the world, not our set of natural priorities, not us, breaks inward into the world of our ordinary experience, and dwells among us, ‘full of grace and truth’. Instead of surging about looking superlative, as mythic heroes are prone to do, flexing enormous muscles or giving smiles of groin-melting beauty, Jesus does his best to complicate and perturb any worshipful reactions he might get, by asking awkward questions. ‘Why do you call me good?’ ‘Who do you say that I am?’ It may be normal for us as human beings to be worshipful, deferring to those in our local troupe of primates we perceive as being grander, stronger, wiser, braver, more glamorous than us; but Jesus, who in the Christian view is the one person who fully deserves worship, goes out of his way to demonstrate that he does not need it. We’re back at the non-rivalrous majesty of the creator. Jesus is not in the business of competing for our admiration, or for anything else. Nothing he has or is, in the story, is extracted from other people’s reactions to him. He shows us a vision of the good which does not ask us to bow down – though we may want to – but, over and over again, to stand up. (And to take the bed with us.)
can’t just say, this story contains physical impossibilities (miracles, resurrection from the dead) and thus a priori must be counted among the impossible things a rational person shouldn’t believe before breakfast. That is to assume the untruth of the story’s own contention that there is a maker of nature who, this once, was able to alter nature’s normal operations. In other words, the argument from impossibility depends on a faith position adopted beforehand, which rather reduces its logical grip on the world.
finding counterpart outrages all the way to the point, two thousand years ago, when the memory of Jesus was first organised into the thing called ‘the church’.
just about inexplicable that, given all the bad stuff, Christians nevertheless believe that our church is something precious. Unless, of course, we secretly approve of the bad stuff. Unless in our heart of hearts we’re actually in favour of massacre and prejudice and exclusion.

we aren’t specially. We’re only as darkly susceptible to that stuff as everyone else is.
could talk, for instance, about the invention of kindness as an ideal of behaviour to rival honour or dominance or stoicism.
emphasis on people being loveable to God irrespective of what they deserve laid the groundwork for the idea of there being rights owed to people irrespective of their status, their behaviour, their capabilities.

theology that the reasons for widening the circle were found. Only the Christian world was wicked enough to practise slavery in its bulk, industrialised, plantation-labour form, but once Christians decided against it, it was largely in imitation that the rest of the world started to reject it in its domestic, small-scale form. Slavery was abolished in Saudi Arabia, for example, in 1962.
Note: though I seem to recall sugar plantation slavery mentioned in a history book I once read, in what is now Iraq under the caliplhate ...
 
what people are is sculptable as well as scripted, we’re creatures of chance and circumstance (and grace) as well as of our biology.
 
People, given an institution to play with, turn it into a pecking order, a tool for personal power, an arena for politicking, an opportunity for spite, a capturable reservoir of rent and loot.
Christianity as the great gratuitous cause of all our sorrows, I mainly think: read more history, mate. Look at the vast record of conflict generated in every society that ever signed up for the opportunities and the costs of being more organised than hunter-gatherers.
Without pernicious Christianity we’d all be grouped round the white piano with John and Yoko. Yeah, right. The patterns of human bad behaviour are far wider and more ancient. I won’t, myself, be convinced that the bloody wars Christians have fought over points of theology are uniquely the fault of the religion rather than of the species in general, unless someone can point out to me a non-Christian area of the planet, with reasonable population density and enough wealth to underwrite weapons production, where they don’t invest their spare time in butchery for the ostensible sake of ideas. If not ideas about religion, then points of economic theory,
There hasn’t quite been a war about evolutionary biology yet, but the brew of bad ideas in Nazism certainly drew on turn-of-the-twentieth-​century speculations about racial difference which people at the time thought were Darwinian

make it a story about a special shiny person, whose side we’re all on as we listen, being abused by especially evil persons. Then what’s wrong in the story is no longer that Jesus is being crucified, it’s that Jesus is being crucified, lovely innocent Jesus. And, comfortably directed outwards, pity turns to anger, and anger turns to hate.
He also didn’t mean: go out, my dears, and hurt yourselves. But it is possible to read it that way, as a suggestion that we should embrace suffering by being enthusiastic about it, and there is a strand of self-directed violence in Christian history as a result, often committed by people who have a troubled or frightened relationship with their bodies anyway, and who are looking for a sanction to act on it.
Monasteries, I’m glad to say, are full of hedonists. If this seems self-contradictory to you, then I would suggest you need to broaden your knowledge of human satisfactions.
the love really never stops, if God really does long for every lost soul, then in principle God regards as forgivable a whole load of stuff we really don’t want forgiven, thank you.

God is apparently ready to rush right in there and give them all a hug, the bastard. We don’t want that. We want justice, dammit, if not in this world then in the next. We want God’s extra-niceness confined to deserving cases such as, for example, us, and a reliable process of judgement put in place which will ensure that the child-murderers are ripped apart with red-hot tongs.

There is a characteristic and persistent Christian failure where power is concerned, but it’s much more specific

The church’s portfolio is valued in the (low) billions, but that’s because it operates on a very large scale. Disaggregate the billions, and you find that on a local level the reality everywhere is one of penny-pinching, and continuous fund-raising just to keep the roof on the thousands of ancient churches. It takes all the running we can do to stay in the same place. It’s not as if the assets could be liquidated, anyway. They aren’t being held for their cash value, and they don’t belong to us to dispose of. The purpose of the church’s money is not to make money, but to contrive for it to go on being true that the church is there whenever it is needed.

In the unlikely event that a heartbroken Richard Dawkins wants help with his HPtFtU, there will be somebody tired but willing in North Oxford whose responsibility it is to offer him an inexpensive digestive biscuit and a cup of milky tea, and to listen to him for as long as it takes.

though Christianity will function, more or less, as an ideology of power, it never does so easily and conveniently, like the law-giving religions. It never does so without an awkward residue being left over. You can tell the gospel as a story about authority, if you choose to
but then what do you do with the insistence that God sees the world upside down, from the vantage point of failure, from our gutters not our palaces? What do you do with His endless alarm about loss, and His indifference to possession? What do you do about Christ’s preference for having dinner with the rogues and the screw-ups and the enemies of public order? No matter how hunky-dory the authorities of some supposedly Christian set-up declare things to be, the church is always nurturing the seeds of a critique. We can’t help it. The critique is always there in the story, and as we value the story, we have to keep the critique of power available.
the source of the general pattern of sorrow power has created in Christian history, is not power itself, but confidence about power. Certainty about power. Optimism about power, of a kind that contradicts Jesus’s grimly kind lack of faith in our chances of managing righteousness. We are supposed to believe that human attempts at perfection will mean a nice slab on top, worms underneath; but it is possible, with a bit of squinting, to imagine that because we’re Christians, our projects might somehow share in God’s freedom from the HPtFtU. Then power, rather than being just another medium in which we’re sure to struggle and blunder as we try to articulate the vision of grace, might itself be sanctified. Christian power might be holy, and be exercised successfully for holy purposes, without irony, without humility, without doubt.
recurring tendency to give religious sanction to whatever is small-‘c’ conservative in a society, at the expense of everybody who falls outside the conservative definition of what’s good and natural.
Then whatever is inside the tribal boundary begins to seem good because it is inside, and whatever is outside begins to seem wicked because it is outside. This produces a moral map of the world where virtue is determined by labels rather than by actions: by what your label says you are, not by what you do. Given the universality of the HPtFtU, it follows that a lot of everyday spite and unpleasantness, and worse, is going to go on under the label of insiderish goodness, and may well be given cover, consciously or unconsciously, by other insiders who believe that they are defending the dignity of the Christian label. Or even that they are defending goodness itself – which is the same thing, according to the insider/outsider map. If
Sexual sins matter, all right – where selves touch so closely, what more fertile field could there be for the HPtFtU? – but any of us can commit them, and we usually do, taking hold of each other coldly, carelessly, mockingly, exploitatively, angrily, as if the other or our own self were a convenient object rather than flesh requiring our recognition and our tenderness.
It’s been a swift, epochal social change. And because the church has been slow to participate in it, and was committed before it (with only a very few exceptions) to the pre-feminist and pre-Stonewall understanding of what was right ’n’ proper, many people now assume that the church must be bigoted on principle. They presume that the bigoted world of the past was bigoted because the church then had the power to enforce its bigoted principle, and is no longer bigoted because the church has lost the power to impose it. Surely the Christian scriptures must contain somewhere the announcement that the Westboro Baptist Church puts on its delightful placards, God Hates Fags. Obviously, they think, mainstream churchy types are a bit more circumspect about expressing it than the Westboro nutcases, seeing that it doesn’t go down very well these days, but just look at the news, just look at the way the churches writhe and cringe when they’re asked to follow the equality laws. It’s the same thing. The Bible teaches hate. They try to hide it now, but it’s too late; that old tyrannical pleasure-​prohibiting stuff has lost its grip on us. We’re off to dance the night away at the roller-disco, daddy-o, wearing hotpants and smooching whom we please, and you can’t stop us, you sad old religious nobodies. We’re free! Free at last, free at last, thank God Almighty we’re free at last. (Whoops, wrong liberation struggle.)
There will always be more change needed. There always has been more change needed. The process is never-ending. For ever and ever, in any possible future, the church will always be adjusting imperfectly to new times, and then un-adjusting again later, also imperfectly, with occasional lucky breaks where grace, crackling onwards through history, helps us to a sudden generosity. The church will always be clumsy and time-lagged and complicit in the corruptions of its times.
towards Skull Hill, and the human body on the cross there. We aren’t just eating Jesus. We’re eating his death. We eat and we drink because we desire monstrosity’s end, but the sacrament carries us into the monstrous, through the monstrous, to get us there, just as the story we tell only arrives at hope by way of tragedy. The meanings of the bread and the wine line up along a bloody corridor, as barbarous as the barbarous world God is working on, and at the end of the corridor, once we have accepted the strange and frightening gift we are being given, there is forgiveness. We eat the bread, we drink the wine, to be joined to the act by which forgiveness came. We eat the end of cruelty and shame. We eat amnesty for whatever the particular load of the HPtFtU was that we brought to the dinner table. We eat the rejoicing that this one time, in spite of all sorrow, the world’s weight was flipped over and turned to joy. We eat grace. And that’s what the church is for

Grace makes us better readers of each other

Saying the same prayers again and again, pacing your body again and again through the set movements of faith, somehow helps keep the door ajar through which He may come. The words may strike you as ecclesiastical blah nine times in ten, or ninety-nine times in a hundred, and then be transformed, and then have the huge fresh wind blowing through them into your little closed room. And meanwhile you make faith your vantage point, your habitual place to stand. And you get used to the way the human landscape looks from there: reoriented, reorganised, different.
The existence of goodness is not in doubt from the Christian point of view: it’s just that we think that you’re likely to have to take a turn, in time, at being the puke-stained other brother. And yes, of course you can be ‘good without God’. I suppose from a philosophical point of view Christians tend to believe that all successful goodness is a remote reflection of God’s.
is observable that a surprisingly large number of believers are to be found among those who volunteer to work with the dying, the demented, the addicted, the institutionalised and the very impaired and afflicted, where the best that can be done is to love for the sake of it, and to keep sorrow company.
I don’t expect the religion ever to be any less ramshackle, in my time, where I live. And that’s all right. For sure, it would be nice if people weren’t quite so rude. It would be nice if they didn’t brandish crude cartoons of nineteenth-century thought as the very latest thing in philosophy, and expect you to reel back, dazzled. It would be nice not to be patronised by nitwits. It would be nice if people were to understand that science is a special exercise in perceiving the world without metaphor, and that, powerful though it is, it doesn’t function as a guide to those very large aspects of experience that can’t be perceived except through metaphor. It would be nice if people saw that the world cannot be disenchanted, and that the choice before us is really a choice of enchantments.

What I do know is that, when I am lucky, when I have managed to pay attention, when for once I have hushed my noise for a little while, it can feel as if there is one. And so it makes emotional sense to proceed as if He’s there; to dare the conditional. And not timid death-fearing emotional sense, or cowering craven master-seeking sense, or censorious holier-than-thou sense, either. Hopeful sense. Realistic sense. Battered-about-but-still-trying sense. The sense recommended by our awkward sky fairy, who says: don’t be careful. Don’t be surprised by any human cruelty. But don’t be afraid. Far more can be mended than you know

"Spend and tax" not "tax and spend"

 I got a response from my MP which got me kind of mad. You'll see why as I reproduce it here. Apologies for the strange changes in types...