Roman Catholic women priests

Those of us who are Anglican in England may be wondering about women and Bishops. Spare a thought for RC women who are sensing a vocation to ordination. Particularly as the Vatican has just issued a document which seems to associate ordaining women with things like paedophilia:

"“Sexual abuse and pornography are more grave dealings, they are an egregious violation of moral law,” he said. “Attempted ordination of women is grave, but on another level; it is a wound that is an attempt against the Catholic faith on the sacramental orders...”"

So, it is understandable that some people have found this gravely offensive. The Vatican are saying that it was just a document covering a, clarifying and tidying up number of things and so it is happenstance that the two issues are in the same document. Fair enough; though it is hard to believe that their PR people ddn't realise that dealing with paedophiliac offenses in a document with other issues would be a difficulty in the making.

A RC acquaintance of mine once said that he though that ordaining women (specifically nuns) would be more likely than ordaining married men. He may be right in arguing that the paying men to support families would be a deal breaker; RC priests are not paid a huge amount; certainly not enough to raise a family on; and (given Vatican teaching on birth control) it would be a huge risk not to have priests with large families -if they only have one or two kids the suspicion would be that they are not themselves adhering to the party line. So ordaining nuns would seem to be a less complicated matter. But then look at what is being said about the matter of ordaining women.

The other side of the matter is to recall that for RCs, the matter of clerical celibacy is not really doctrinal. It is custom codified by canon law. There are churches in communion with Rome, mostly in Eastern Europe and the Mediterranean area, which were formerly Orthodox (mostly called Uniate Churches) and who continue to ordain married men; they have carried over their Orthodox practice. So there can be no doctrinal objection to married male priests. So from that perspective it may be that married priests would be the more likely: they already have them, it is simply a 'tactical' matter.

What do you think?
And, if Rome changed its mind about women's ordination: where would that leave the debate for some Anglicans?

Bridget Mary's Blog:

Why you are ordained ...

I came across this (htt Richard Sudworth) and offer it to all those I know who are ordained, particularly those newly ordained. The words are actually by Ray Gaston:

'We are not ordaining you to ministry; that happened at your baptism. We are not ordaining you to serve the Church in committees, activities, organisation; that is already implied in your membership. We are not ordaining you to become involved in social issues, in ecology, race, politics, and the search for justice and peace; for that is laid on every Christian.

We are ordaining you to something smaller and less spectacular; to read and interpret those sacred stories of our community, so that they speak a word to people today; to remember and practice those rituals of meaning that address people at the level where change takes place; to foster in community, through word and sacrament, that encounter with truth which will set people free to minister as the Body of Christ.

God grant you grace not to betray but uphold it, not to deny but to affirm it, through Jesus Christ our Lord."

Distinctly Welcoming: Pioneer Ordination: more tea, vicar?

Deacons, priests and bishops, oh My!

Sat in Durham cathedral this morning and we'd just started the bit of the liturgy leading into renewal of ordination vows. I look ahead, over the page, to see that the directions invite the deacons to stand to hear and respond, then ask the deacons to sit and the priests to stand for their bit. I was a bit dischuffed: as far as I understand it I am both deacon and priest. The bishop didn't apply a spiritual vacuum cleaner to remove the grace of diaconal orders when he applied hands to ordain me into presbyteral orders. And yet the staging of the liturgy seems to imply that state of affairs. Now, if were were British Methodists the liturgy we performed at that point would have been accurate: British Methodism has diaconal and presbyteral orders but in parallel; one is either one or the other. However, catholic order, which Anglicans preserve, 'stacks' the orders one on the other.

Probably the reason for my dischuffment lies in part with my own valuing of my diaconal calling and ordination. For me it is important both theologically and symbolically that presbyteral orders are conferred within, so to speak, the context or frame of diaconal ordination. It echoes my own struggle to make sense of both my reading of the NT and my sense of calling to ordination: fundamentally the call to serve the people of God is the prior and controlling call. We can only lead /elder if we first serve; our eldership is modelled after the servant King.

So I was unhappy to be implicitly asked to rank my presbyteral ordination higher than my diaconal. So, in common with half a dozen that I could see (my wife among them), I stood to affirm my diaconal commitment and did not then sit down but remained standing to affirm my presbyteral undertaking.

I do think that it is important that we who are in priestly orders should not be allowed to forget that we remain deacons and so liturgies like this should not be constructed to let that happen.

Now I recognise that the positive side of what was attempted was probably to affirm the ministry of deacons who are not ordained priest. And that is good and right; particularly if we are to encourage a permanent diaconate which we say we are committed to. However, we need to do that differently. Of course, there is the question about the way that the service arguably reinforces a hierarchical valuing of the ministries; the diaconal vows are treated as if belonging to a distinct ministry, yet in reality it seemed that all those reaffirming those words were either presbyters or hoping soon to be. Do we want that? If we are to create a permanent diaconate, is that really the way to do it? But perhaps I'm being a bit oversensitive about that.

Anyway, how should we restructure the liturgy to encourage all those in deacons' orders, including Bishops and priests, to stand in solidarity of ministry and yet allow those who are deacons alone to have a dignity of their own?

Well the former could be met by having all the ordained stood at the beginning and each order sitting down as their particular commitments were concluded (ie the deacons sit before the priestly undertaking was read, and the priests sit before the episcopal commitment is re-affirmed). However, that wouldn't seem to give a particular dignity to the deacons-alone, though it would be a better solution than what I saw today.

Perhaps it might work to add to the above suggestion that a lay person ask the first question of all the ordained, the non-presbyteral-deacons would then ask the presbyters the priestly question, and the presbyters ask the bishops their question.
Could that work?

PS; a note to my students from Leading Worship: the above is something of a (partial) reflection on an act of worship bringing some theological concerns to bear on a moment of liturgy and considering both the sign-value of the act as it happened and using the theological considerations to try to re-envisage that liturgical moment to address the theological and practical issues raised.

Sister Act: Siblings to become the first in Britain to both be ordained as vicars

I'm a bit proud -though I've no reason to be except that I'm the tutor of the second named of the sisters; here's how the Mail reports it. Sister Act: Siblings to become the first in Britain to both be ordained as vicars | Mail Online: "Rachel Rosborough and Ellie Clack are nearing the end of their training to be ministers and will become the first sisters to be ordained as vicars. The Leicester-born sisters will be ordained into the Church of England in June. Sisters Rachel Rosborough and Ellie Clack will both be ordained as vicars on same day They have both been training at St John's College in Nottingham."
As always it's an interesting reflection on how the media don't quite go in for accuracy. Strictly speaking Ellie and Rachel are being ordained deacons and will serve as curates. Next year they will be ordained priests (that it admitted to presbyteral orders) and only after serving 3-4 years as "assistant curates" would they be considered eligible to be vicars. However, it is clear that in popular speech, an ordained Anglican (and sometimes other kinds of denominational background is included) is a 'vicar'. So 'vicar' is the new 'priest', and priest was the new 'presbyter' .....
Anyway, do join me in praying for two people who have a great deal to offer the Church of England as ministers, and also their cohort of ordinands to be ordained this coming June and July.

Co-spousal presbyterisation complete!

Well, now I am married to an Anglican priest. And so is my wife. On Saturday afternoon she was ordered to presbyteral ministry, and I got to have a hand in it too: lovely. I wrote a proper preface for her first presidency yesterday. A long preface to go with Prayer E. It goes like this:

It is good to praise you our God,
you made humankind to be priests of your creation.
And when we refused our role,
in your love you sent Jesus to offer the sacrifice of himself
and reveal the new creation by rising from death.
So he redeemed our priesthood
and renewed your calling in us.
We give thanks that we have the hope of the Day
when all priesthood will be fulfilled.
In your intimate closeness to all you have made.
and so we gladly thank you,
with saints and angels praising you, and saying:
All Holy, holy, holy Lord,

My best beloved is fourth from the left just in front of Bishop Tom's rights shoulder.
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